Sure, let the BAD list know (looks like BALISA monitoring SIG to also be at Henry's Hunan Restaurant, S.F. 2007-08-08)

[Michael Paoli]

Peter Mui & I have been in some e-mail communications about
BAYLISA monitoring SIG also being at Henry's Hunan Restaurant
at the same time as the BAD meeting.  I think our thinking is
along the lines of not technically being a "joint"/combined
meeting so much, but rather both groups meeting at same time
and venue.  Anyway, the e-mail "thread" should catch folks up
on that pretty well.  I've also added a few more in-line items
in response to Peter's most recent e-mail to me (and maybe even
fixed a typo or so).

Also, sounds like BAYLISA monitoring SIG meeting on 2007-08-08
would be more of an informal meet/greet/chat style more simiar to BAD
meetings, rather than some formal presentation (I believe the BAYLISA
monitoring SIG will have a BoF at LinuxWorld; the BAYLISA monitoring SIG
meeting on 2007-08-08 will likely be even much less formal and
specifically focused than their BoF session).

Quoting Peter Mui <pmui at groundworkopensource.com>:

> Hi Michael:
> 
> On Jul 19, 2007, at 9:00 AM, Michael Paoli wrote:
> 
> > Sounds like a general plan ... :-)
> >
> > Do you mind if I pass this along to the BAD list for folks to
> > possibly comment upon / discuss?  The BAD list is
> > publicly archived, so you can also check on any resultant discussion.
> > BAD site, list, and archives:
> > http://bad.debian.net/
> > http://bad.debian.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bad
> > http://bad.debian.net/list/
> > If the SIG has a suitable (e.g. "talk"/"discussion") list or such,
> > I've no objection if you want to put most or all of this e-mail/ 
> > exchange
> > on there.
> 
> Sure, please let the BAD list people know we're considering this.   
> I'll try to track the conversation but may not get to it: if for some  
> reason the consensus quickly occurs to NOT have a joint meeting send  
> me an out-of-band communication to make sure I know.
> 
> Q: Aren't you involved with BALUG too?  Do you want to invite them to  
> this meeting as well?

Yes, I'm rather/quite involved with BALUG too.  For better or worse,
BALUG has a quite fixed meeting schedule and venue, and I think
consensus/plurality opinion is (or likely would be) not to change
that.  However, I/we can also mention on the BALUG "talk" list,
the information about the BAD and Monitoring SIG stuff happening
at Henry's Hunan Restaurant (and stuff Debian, BAD, monitoring SIG, etc.
are doing at/around LinuxWorld Expo).  Closer to LinuxWorld Expo, I
(or someone from BALUG) can probably also put out an item to the
"announce" list - wouldn't have so much detail, but can have
brief (sentance to short paragraph) synopsis of various goings
on - with URLs folks can follow to get more detailed information
if they're interested.  I'd guestimate some moderate number of
BALUG folks would join the BAD or monitoring SIG happenings at
Henry's with mention of it on BALUG list(s).

> > Anyway, I was thinking (if it wasn't already obvious or implied),
> > BAD meeting - since it's already announced, scheduled, reservation
> > in and all that, I'd say I/we aren't inclined to change timing or
> > location on that.
> 
> OK, let's stick with Henry's.
> 
> > Probably much simpler to have "two separate meetings" - that just
> > "happen to be" :-) at the same venue, same or overlapping time,
> > and probably physically positioned to be adjacent - or at least
> > conveniently close together.
> >
> > BAD has generally never done an RSVP type system (we've never required
> > one for our meetings - though sometimes the organizer of a meeting
> > will suggest "RSVP yes" e-mails to help project attendance size).
> > Also, since BAD has done meeting at this venue before, and very
> > similar timing and circumstances, we probably have a rather to quite
> > good estimate of probable attendance.
> 
> So how many BAD attendees would you expect for this?

I'd guestimate right around 24 or 25 BADies.  I think that's how many
BAD folks we had 2 years ago when we did almost exactly the same
thing - and we'll probably promote/publicise it in pretty much the same
way, ... so I'd guestimate a rather similar number (probably +-25% of that
guestimate anyway).

> > For the monitoring SIG, there may be more variability/unpredictability
> > in meeting size - particularly with LWE, promotions, Henry's venue  
> > rather
> > than the SIGs regular venue, etc., ... perhaps the SIG would want to
> > do an RSVP system (or at least recommend/suggest that folks RSVP) to
> > help on planning and reservation sizing and such.  (may not be
> > indicative of what the SIG would get, but when I suggested RSVP for
> > BAD about 2 years ago at Henry's, only a very small percentage of
> > those that came sent an RSVP ... but monitoring SIG may be different -
> > I think you generally suggest an RSVP? ... so the habits/practice
> > of attendees might be a bit different regarding RSVPs).
> 
> Yeah, but I don't get many RSVPs either, say, less than 5, and then  
> 25 people show up.  But it's a good advance indicator of the  
> popularity of an event.

Yup, ... I think last time I asked for RSVPs, only a very small percentage
of those that attended had RSVPed.  Nevertheless (especially if one's done
RSVPs before and knows about the turnout/response ratio) it may be useful
to put in an RSVP system/mechanism to guestimate likely attendance size.
I'm not doing this for the BAD meeting (figuring the atendance from 2 years
ago is likely a much better estimate than I'd get extrapolating from RSVPs).

> > Timing doesn't have to precisely line up between the two meetings.
> > I timed the BAD meeting to conveniently follow the LWE BoF sessions.
> 
> I'd like the SIG to start the same time as the BAD meeting. They  
> don't kick you out of the BoF rooms.  So even though the BoFs are  
> scheduled from 6:00-7:00 last year ours ran over (not an issue with  
> our BoF this year as we're on Tuesday, but something to think about.)

I don't recall for sure if it was LinuxWorld, or some other event, ... but
eventually they "chase" you out of the BoF rooms ... whether that's shortly
after the official BoF ending time, or quite a bit later may depend on
various factors (e.g. do they have to reconfigure the room for the next
morning's sessions).  Anyway, the BAD meeting start time is well set to
dovetail with the *scheduled* ending time of the BoF sessions.

> > There was mention of Henry's closing at 9:00 P.M. - I don't think  
> > that's
> > an issue (never been particularly "chased" out of there) ... I  
> > think thats
> > just when they close the kitchen down and such.  Also, BAD meetings
> > typically span about 2 hours, ... we usually don't schedule an  
> > "end" time
> > explicitly, but the meetings usually fade out relatively quickly at
> > somewhere around roughly 2 hours after start of meeting ... might  
> > typically
> > run a bit longer for larger meetings - at least statistically on  
> > average.
> 
> OK
> 
> > With LWE & related events, though LWE will definitely bring more folks
> > into proximity, there are also other competing events (e.g. vendor  
> > invite
> > events) that will also compete to at least some extent, with BAD and
> > monitoring SIG stuff (you may want to keep that in mind for SIG
> > attendance guestimates - BAD still had one of its (if not the) largest
> > meetings in quite a while - about 1.5 to 2.5 times the size of our  
> > more
> > "typical" BAD meeting sizes, when we did this about 2 years ago).
> 
> About how many people were at that BAD meeting?

Noted above - right around 24 or 25 BAD folks.

> > If you do manage to check out (visit) Henry's - do note that they're
> > *much* more crowded (generally packed plus bit of a wait) for  
> > typical
> > weekday lunches, and relatively sparsely occupied (typically about  
> > 20% of
> > dining capacity) for typical evening weekday dinners.
> >
> > Also, Henry's has a "back" dining section that's a bit separated off -
> > can probably hold at least 25 people, ... perhaps closer to 40 or 50
> > (I forget how many tables in that section; their larger tables  
> > typically
> > seat about 8).  Most of the rest of the restaurant has the tables  
> > pretty
> > much all around one common area (though some at the very front are  
> > slightly
> > separated off).  I'd guestimate for size of "combined" BAD+SIG we'd  
> > probably
> > just occupy a large "chunk"/portion of the "main" dining area (if  
> > the "back"
> > section isn't large enough, we might not all fit in that area - and  
> > the
> > "back" section is also relatively separated off (there's a dividing  
> > wall).
> > I think also, even with our largest combined attendance estimates,  
> > we'd
> > probably still not account for more than 60% of the restaurant's  
> > seating
> > capacity - which could be well accommodated in the main dining  
> > section.
> 
> OK, I'll try to check Henry's out.
> 
> Cheers, -Peter
> 
> Peter Mui, Open Source Community Advocate
> GROUNDWORK Open Source, Inc.
> 139 Townsend Street, Suite 100
> San Francisco, CA 94107-1946
> +1 415 992 4573 (direct)
> +1 415 947 0684 (fax)
> pmui at groundworkopensource.com
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > Anyway, just my thoughts/observations/guestimates/$0.02 worth or so/ 
> > etc.
> >
> > Quoting Peter Mui <pmui at groundworkopensource.com>:
> >
> >> Hi Michael:
> >>
> >> Thanks for your email reply, see my responses inline below:
> >>
> >> On Jul 17, 2007, at 7:19 AM, Michael Paoli wrote:
> >>
> >>> Were you thinking at Henry's, or ???
> >>
> >> Yes, Henry's.  Or I can offer our offices (training room and company
> >> cafeteria) as an alternative, and GroundWork will spring for food
> >> (pizza) for everyone in that case.
> >>
> >>> Henry's Hunan can handle quite a number of people ... I think there
> >>> lunchtime capacity is probably around a hundred or more - and they
> >>> tend to be packed (plus a wait on top of that) for lunchtime
> >>> weekdays on regular business days.  They tend to not be nearly so
> >>> crowded in the evening (typically at or below 20% of capacity), so
> >>> they can probably accomodate quite a number of people in the evening
> >>> (with suitable advance notice/reservation so they can staff
> >>> appropriately for the timeslot).
> >>
> >> I'm happy with Henry's or GroundWork's offices, and I'm currently
> >> conflicted about it:
> >>
> >> GroundWork's offices: familiar to SIG attendees, free food, I know
> >> how to run a good event here
> >> Henry's: Close to LinuxWorld/ Moscone, change of pace
> >>
> >>> How many folks typically attend the monitoring SIG?
> >>
> >> 25-40 people: how many people usually attend BAD meetings?
> >>
> >>> Any guestimate what that might likely swell to in conjunction with
> >>> LinuxWorld?
> >>
> >> No idea, I guess it would depend on how much we (GroundWork and BAD)
> >> promoted it.  I imagine I could limit the SIG attendance to 50 people
> >> easily, and I could push it to 75.
> >>
> >> We'll have a "Monitoring All-Stars" BoF at LinuxWorld the night
> >> before: just mentioning it there could have a 2X effect on attendance
> >> the following night.  We have a booth in the exhibits: mentioning it
> >> there could have another 2X-4X effect.
> >>
> >>> The "form"/structure of BAD meetings is pretty informal, ...
> >>> essentially no set agenda - most notably no talks/presentations
> >>> explicity lined up (folks tend to just meet/hangout/greet - and  
> >>> often
> >>> do keysignings).  Perhaps rather than a (formally) joint meeting,
> >>> perhaps "just" have both meetings being quite adjacent at the same
> >>> place?
> >>
> >> Yeah, that works too.
> >>
> >>> Is the monitoring SIG for August mostly planned to be just meet and
> >>> greet and special guests, or is it more planned around
> >>> presentations/talks?
> >>
> >> Meet n' greet: we have the BoF the night before, and it's too little
> >> time to have everyone do presentations on their projects.
> >>
> >>> In terms of location, I was definitely thinking Henry's (already
> >>> announced that for BAD and have the reservation in - and also very
> >>> conveniently close to LinuxWorld).
> >>
> >> Yes, our offices are farther away, a block from AT&T ballpark:
> >> Henry's proximity to Moscone is a big plus.
> >>
> >> But two things:
> >>
> >> 1) Henry's closes at 9PM: are they willing to stay open later?
> >> 2) LinuxWorld will be having BoFs and parties that night too: is
> >> there any provision for people attending this and those too?
> >>
> >> I'll try to check out Henry's in the near future.
> >>
> >>> Anyway, ... let me know your thoughts.  If it sounds like it would
> >>> likely "fit" I could also mention it on the BAD list - folks may  
> >>> have
> >>> useful ideas on how to optimize a "joint" (or adjacent) meeting
> >>> at Henry's.
> >>
> >> OK: I'd like to do it.  Some of our project leads are from overseas,
> >> so I'd like them to get a feel for the US linux enthusiast scene, and
> >> this joint dinner would be a great way to do it.
> >>
> >>> Sounds like you have quite a lineup for the monitoring SIG in
> >>> August.  I'd guestimate BAD folks would be interested - or at least
> >>> wouldn't mind, if the monitoring SIG was also at the restaurant
> >>> at/through the same timeframe - but again, just my guess.
> >>
> >> Yes, I think it's a very good fit.  Let's keep talking about this.
> >>
> >> Q: how does BAD typically handle paying for the food?  Do you get one
> >> big check and split it or: does everyone just order what they want
> >> and pay ala carte?
> >>
> >> -Peter
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Quoting Peter Mui <pmui at groundworkopensource.com>:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> I saw your announcement about the BAD meeting August 8.  May I
> >>>> propose that we combine this meeting with the BayLISA Monitoring  
> >>>> SIG
> >>>> and have a joint meeting?  Here's why:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) The Monitoring SIG normally meets the second Wednesday of every
> >>>> month anyway.
> >>>> 2) We'd be featuring some very special guests at the SIG that
> >>>> LinuxWorld week:
> >>>>
> >>>> Ian Berry - Cacti (We're actually hosting the whole Cacti  
> >>>> development
> >>>> team of five people)
> >>>> Howard Jones - PHP-Weathermap
> >>>> Tobi Oetiker - RRDtool, MRTG, Smokeping
> >>>> Remo Rickli - NeDi
> >>>> Matt Massie - Ganglia
> >>>> Alex Russell - Dojo toolkit
> >>>>
> >>>> At least some of these people could be present for the dinner
> >>>> meeting.  It'd make for quite a show.
> >>>>
> >>>> Let me know if this interests you.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers, -Peter
> >>>>
> >>>> Peter Mui, Open Source Community Advocate
> >>>> GROUNDWORK Open Source, Inc.
> >>>> 139 Townsend Street, Suite 100
> >>>> San Francisco, CA 94107-1946
> >>>> +1 415 992 4573 (direct)
> >>>> +1 415 947 0684 (fax)
> >>>> pmui at groundworkopensource.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Begin forwarded message:
> >>> http://bad.debian.net/list/2007-July/003153.html