From togo at of.net  Mon Dec  1 15:17:37 2014
From: togo at of.net (Tony Godshall)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 15:17:37 -0800
Subject: Here we go: devuan
In-Reply-To: <20141130114329.1303369isgzs43mo@webmail.rawbw.com>
References: <20141129151349.4914f140.itz@buug.org>
 <CABesOu37b0t4MF9ULbwvu_JZ=sD_rUyBFezxHi+JZNdqTN3n=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20141130114329.1303369isgzs43mo@webmail.rawbw.com>
Message-ID: <CAAOvATgDYQ-y=S0cFVzmicL_sGY8mYOEVAk4QUgWJxfHsvV-Nw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Michael Paoli
<Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> Thanks,
>
> I also like Ian's well calling out the point (which I'm quite aware of
> but failed to mention): "If" ... "this was just an init system"[1].
>
> For better or worse, systemd has its hooks/fingers into the operating
> system well beyond being an init system, and conversely, many major
> software packages/systems are, for better or worse, making themselves
> highly and even inherently dependent upon systemd.

I think at this point it is incumbent upon all of us to file bugs
anytime such a dependency impinges on us.  Those who cannot
use systemd are many, and as such dependency problems come
to light, debian maintainers will need to fix them.

...

> And it's not been just Linux looking at and/or using significantly
> different init systems.  Has also happened in the Unix/BSD space as
> well.  I keep hoping this would just all "work itself out" more
> smoothly, and with less animosity and "battles".  But, alas, sometimes
> hard decisions have to be made, and sometimes those are just about
> guaranteed to seriously ruffle some feathers.

Ruffling of feathers is the least of our worries, and putting
it in those terms is obnoxiously belittling.

...

If Debian is breaking things, people will look elsewhere.
Debian's been solid on server, while others have broken
things, and it would be a shame if Debian followed the
desktop into brokenness.  But I don't think it'll happen.
Debian has good feedback at bugs.debian.org, and
it'll be hard for core packages to adopt systemd without
regression bugs being filed.  IMHO systemd-requiring
packages will end up being limited to the kind of apps
that require Gnome3.  Ironically, Ubuntu (with its large
base of xubuntu and lubuntu and now ubuntu-mate users)
may become a force for core desktop sanity rather than
reckless change.  Assuming a typical ubuntu user can
learn to file a bug rather than complain on a random
message board.

All of the above in my humble opinion of course.
Inflammatory rhetoric not to be taken personally.

Tony

From acohen36 at linuxwaves.com  Tue Dec  2 11:13:11 2014
From: acohen36 at linuxwaves.com (GoOSSBears)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 11:13:11 -0800
Subject: Here we go: devuan
Message-ID: <20141202111311.80FFEF5A@m0048140.ppops.net>

--- togo at of.net wrote:
From: Tony Godshall <togo at of.net>
To: Michael Paoli <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu>, Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org>,        "Elizabeth K. Joseph" <lyz at princessleia.com>
Cc: Bay Area Debian <bad at bad.debian.net>
Subject: Re: Here we go: devuan
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 15:17:37 -0800
...
...

> If Debian is breaking things, people will look elsewhere.
> Debian's been solid on server, while others have broken
> things, and it would be a shame if Debian followed the
> desktop into brokenness.  But I don't think it'll happen.
> Debian has good feedback at bugs.debian.org, and
> it'll be hard for core packages to adopt systemd without
> regression bugs being filed.  IMHO systemd-requiring
> packages will end up being limited to the kind of apps
> that require Gnome3.  Ironically, Ubuntu (with its large
> base of xubuntu and lubuntu and now ubuntu-mate users)
> may become a force for core desktop sanity rather than
> reckless change.  
--
Thanks, Ian Z, for bringing up the discussion subject of systemd and for Tony G's and others' elaborations. 
I myself posted a systemd-related thread to the BALUG-Talk mailing-list exactly three months ago today[1] and now see two overall approaches to the rise and prevalence of systemd; Avoiding systemd and Accommodating systemd. IMHO, each of these approaches involves some sort of a learning curve for those of us who have to deal with systemd in some way or another. 

When trying to avoid systemd, what comes to my mind are:
- Avoiding as many systemd-dependent apps and services as possible, e.g., avoiding Gnome3 and apps depending upon Gnome3 (as Tony G previously mentioned).  The learning curve could be with identifying, installing, and using systemd-free (non-Gnome3) desktop environments and apps.
- Sticking to Debian 7.x Wheezy for as long as possible (for those who already have Wheezy as opposed to the systemd-containing Jessie), and then _maybe_ upgrading to this devuan distro way in the future.  As Michael P previously wrote[2][3], devuan is undergoing distro startup pains, and is likely to do so for quite awhile, although who can really estimate whether or not devuan will stabilize and become popular within Wheezy's remaining lifecycle or "after all the dust has settled?"
If upgrading to this fork, devuan, then there certainly will be some sort of minor|major learning curve for getting up to speed with this upstart (not Ubuntu's init system!) distro.
- Completely avoiding the systemd init system by gutting Debian plus all other systemd-dependent distros, and replacing such Linux distros with one of the *BSD's or Slackware.  There is active discusssion of this possibility in /.'s 'Debian Forked Over Systemd'[4] and even within Patrick B's debian-user mailing-list topic 'Replacing systemd in Jessie'[5][6].  Becoming fully up-to-speed with the non-Linux *BSD's and their way of thinking is likely to be a major learning curve for those switching completely away from Debian/Ubuntu.  I would easily guesstimate that learning Slackware for longtime Debianistas and Ubunteros has a lower learning curve compared to learning the *BSD's, given that Slackware is fully Linuxized.

When accommodating systemd as an init system, IMHO, it becomes almost mandatory to learn about Jessie's systemd through the documentation on its management system 'systemctl' and on its logging system 'journalctl'. The ArchLinux systemd page[7] and a Carla S's 'Intro to Systemd Runlevels and Service Management Commands'[8] have provided myself and probably others clear guides to using and managing systemd with 'systemctl' and 'journald'.  I found that these two particular guides were even clearer than the current versions of the Debian and Ubuntu systemd guides[9][10] in becoming up-to-speed with the systemd init system.  The key systemd-related man pages in Jessie are systemd(1), systemctl(1) and journalctl(1).

FWIW, I am both accommodating and avoiding systemd. On Debian-installed boxes with Jessie and Debian-related Linux Mint 17.x installed, I of course use systemd. On other boxes, I have distros based directly upon Debian Wheezy installed (e.g., Wheezy, Crunchbang), as well as Slackware.  Besides trying to avoid systemd through using desktop environments other than Gnome -- and avoiding Gnome variants MATE and Cinnamon when possible -- I am wondering what realistic options other than those I mentioned above will be coming down the line for Debianistas wishing to avoid systemd?

-A

Refs:
=====
[1]http://lists.balug.org/pipermail/balug-talk-balug.org/2014-September/000587.html 
[2]http://bad.debian.net/pipermail/bad/2014-November/003654.html 
[3]http://bad.debian.net/pipermail/bad/2014-November/003657.html 
[4]http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/11/28/1846259/debian-forked-over-systemd 
[5]https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/11/thrd4.html 
[6]https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/12/threads.html 
[7]https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd 
[8]http://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/794615-systemd-runlevels-and-service-management 
[9]https://wiki.debian.org/systemd 
[10]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/systemd 

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708#6734 
https://www.debian.org/vote/2014/vote_003 

--
Go Open Source Software Bears!


_____________________________________________________________
Get your FREE, LinuxWaves.com Email Now! --> http://www.LinuxWaves.com 
Join Linux Discussions! --> http://Community.LinuxWaves.com

From itz at buug.org  Tue Dec  2 12:12:17 2014
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 12:12:17 -0800
Subject: Avoid or accommodate [Was: Here we go: devuan]
In-Reply-To: <20141202111311.80FFEF5A@m0048140.ppops.net>
References: <20141202111311.80FFEF5A@m0048140.ppops.net>
Message-ID: <20141202121217.05bd12f8.itz@buug.org>

[posted to list despite Reply-To; apologies in advance if not wanted]

On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 11:13:11 -0800,
GoOSSBears <acohen36 at linuxwaves.com> wrote:

A> Thanks, Ian Z, for bringing up the discussion subject of systemd and
A> for Tony G's and others' elaborations.  I myself posted a
A> systemd-related thread to the BALUG-Talk mailing-list exactly three
A> months ago today[1] and now see two overall approaches to the rise
A> and prevalence of systemd; Avoiding systemd and Accommodating
A> systemd. IMHO, each of these approaches involves some sort of a
A> learning curve for those of us who have to deal with systemd in some
A> way or another.

For me, avoiding is the natural choice because I got quite good at it
after years of avoiding Gnome, KDE and all their spawn.  I already
maintain 10-20 major private source packages with all their Gnome hooks
removed.  Aside from my interest in Devuan, I am also learning Gentoo
just in case.

I should also clarify that for me, desktop is the major battleground
(contrary to the explicit server orientation of Devuan).  On servers, I
can imagine myself adopting *BSD rather easily.  But on desktop Linux
has an edge in hardware support and the plumbing close to hardware (ALSA
being the major case in point).

-- 
Please *no* private copies of mailing list or newsgroup messages.
Rule 420: All persons more than eight miles high to leave the court.
Local Variables:
mode:claws-external
End:

From togo at of.net  Tue Dec  2 12:59:43 2014
From: togo at of.net (Tony Godshall)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 12:59:43 -0800
Subject: Here we go: devuan
In-Reply-To: <CAAOvATgDYQ-y=S0cFVzmicL_sGY8mYOEVAk4QUgWJxfHsvV-Nw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20141129151349.4914f140.itz@buug.org>
 <CABesOu37b0t4MF9ULbwvu_JZ=sD_rUyBFezxHi+JZNdqTN3n=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20141130114329.1303369isgzs43mo@webmail.rawbw.com>
 <CAAOvATgDYQ-y=S0cFVzmicL_sGY8mYOEVAk4QUgWJxfHsvV-Nw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAOvATgKkWTRKuwWqXUZx0vXZ_vTWDM=HB-mGw5+CAaeDzU5zg@mail.gmail.com>

More context on the systemd issue...

http://www.zdnet.com/linus-torvalds-and-others-on-linuxs-systemd-7000033847/

And Ubuntu's direction... (Mark Shuttleworth interview starts about
half way through)

http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/72637/mark-shuttleworth-interview-las-341/

Interestingly, ubuntu and debian are in more alignment now,
as Ubuntu drops upstart in favor of systemd.

That interview, as well as the inclusion of ubuntu-mate as an official flavor,
restores a lot of my respect for Ubuntu and Canonical.  I don't think they'd
make the LTS-breaks-loyal-user-desktops mistake again.

T


On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 3:17 PM, Tony Godshall <togo at of.net> wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Michael Paoli
> <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>> Thanks,
>>
>> I also like Ian's well calling out the point (which I'm quite aware of
>> but failed to mention): "If" ... "this was just an init system"[1].
>>
>> For better or worse, systemd has its hooks/fingers into the operating
>> system well beyond being an init system, and conversely, many major
>> software packages/systems are, for better or worse, making themselves
>> highly and even inherently dependent upon systemd.
>
> I think at this point it is incumbent upon all of us to file bugs
> anytime such a dependency impinges on us.  Those who cannot
> use systemd are many, and as such dependency problems come
> to light, debian maintainers will need to fix them.
>
> ...
>
>> And it's not been just Linux looking at and/or using significantly
>> different init systems.  Has also happened in the Unix/BSD space as
>> well.  I keep hoping this would just all "work itself out" more
>> smoothly, and with less animosity and "battles".  But, alas, sometimes
>> hard decisions have to be made, and sometimes those are just about
>> guaranteed to seriously ruffle some feathers.
>
> Ruffling of feathers is the least of our worries, and putting
> it in those terms is obnoxiously belittling.
>
> ...
>
> If Debian is breaking things, people will look elsewhere.
> Debian's been solid on server, while others have broken
> things, and it would be a shame if Debian followed the
> desktop into brokenness.  But I don't think it'll happen.
> Debian has good feedback at bugs.debian.org, and
> it'll be hard for core packages to adopt systemd without
> regression bugs being filed.  IMHO systemd-requiring
> packages will end up being limited to the kind of apps
> that require Gnome3.  Ironically, Ubuntu (with its large
> base of xubuntu and lubuntu and now ubuntu-mate users)
> may become a force for core desktop sanity rather than
> reckless change.  Assuming a typical ubuntu user can
> learn to file a bug rather than complain on a random
> message board.
>
> All of the above in my humble opinion of course.
> Inflammatory rhetoric not to be taken personally.
>
> Tony



-- 
--
Best Regards.
This is unedited.
This message came out of me
via a suboptimal keyboard.

From togo at of.net  Wed Dec  3 13:34:49 2014
From: togo at of.net (Tony Godshall)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 13:34:49 -0800
Subject: Here we go: devuan
In-Reply-To: <CAAOvATgKkWTRKuwWqXUZx0vXZ_vTWDM=HB-mGw5+CAaeDzU5zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20141129151349.4914f140.itz@buug.org>
 <CABesOu37b0t4MF9ULbwvu_JZ=sD_rUyBFezxHi+JZNdqTN3n=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20141130114329.1303369isgzs43mo@webmail.rawbw.com>
 <CAAOvATgDYQ-y=S0cFVzmicL_sGY8mYOEVAk4QUgWJxfHsvV-Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAOvATgKkWTRKuwWqXUZx0vXZ_vTWDM=HB-mGw5+CAaeDzU5zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAOvATjwaPFe7UC3pFHc5A00uidW1Ug_01XJX9VKwOyuEs3ukg@mail.gmail.com>

Watching the video version of the interview new

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9qeQ7o33GE

Shuttleworth addresses the invasiveness of systemd at about 55 minutes in.

((By the way, Firefox with Shumway is very competent at watching Youtube.))




On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Tony Godshall <togo at of.net> wrote:
> More context on the systemd issue...
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/linus-torvalds-and-others-on-linuxs-systemd-7000033847/
>
> And Ubuntu's direction... (Mark Shuttleworth interview starts about
> half way through)
>
> http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/72637/mark-shuttleworth-interview-las-341/
>
> Interestingly, ubuntu and debian are in more alignment now,
> as Ubuntu drops upstart in favor of systemd.
>
> That interview, as well as the inclusion of ubuntu-mate as an official flavor,
> restores a lot of my respect for Ubuntu and Canonical.  I don't think they'd
> make the LTS-breaks-loyal-user-desktops mistake again.
>
> T
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 3:17 PM, Tony Godshall <togo at of.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Michael Paoli
>> <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> I also like Ian's well calling out the point (which I'm quite aware of
>>> but failed to mention): "If" ... "this was just an init system"[1].
>>>
>>> For better or worse, systemd has its hooks/fingers into the operating
>>> system well beyond being an init system, and conversely, many major
>>> software packages/systems are, for better or worse, making themselves
>>> highly and even inherently dependent upon systemd.
>>
>> I think at this point it is incumbent upon all of us to file bugs
>> anytime such a dependency impinges on us.  Those who cannot
>> use systemd are many, and as such dependency problems come
>> to light, debian maintainers will need to fix them.
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> And it's not been just Linux looking at and/or using significantly
>>> different init systems.  Has also happened in the Unix/BSD space as
>>> well.  I keep hoping this would just all "work itself out" more
>>> smoothly, and with less animosity and "battles".  But, alas, sometimes
>>> hard decisions have to be made, and sometimes those are just about
>>> guaranteed to seriously ruffle some feathers.
>>
>> Ruffling of feathers is the least of our worries, and putting
>> it in those terms is obnoxiously belittling.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> If Debian is breaking things, people will look elsewhere.
>> Debian's been solid on server, while others have broken
>> things, and it would be a shame if Debian followed the
>> desktop into brokenness.  But I don't think it'll happen.
>> Debian has good feedback at bugs.debian.org, and
>> it'll be hard for core packages to adopt systemd without
>> regression bugs being filed.  IMHO systemd-requiring
>> packages will end up being limited to the kind of apps
>> that require Gnome3.  Ironically, Ubuntu (with its large
>> base of xubuntu and lubuntu and now ubuntu-mate users)
>> may become a force for core desktop sanity rather than
>> reckless change.  Assuming a typical ubuntu user can
>> learn to file a bug rather than complain on a random
>> message board.
>>
>> All of the above in my humble opinion of course.
>> Inflammatory rhetoric not to be taken personally.
>>
>> Tony
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Best Regards.
> This is unedited.
> This message came out of me
> via a suboptimal keyboard.



-- 
--
Best Regards.
This is unedited.
This message came out of me
via a suboptimal keyboard.

From alchaiken at gmail.com  Wed Dec  3 14:28:40 2014
From: alchaiken at gmail.com (Alison Chaiken)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 23:28:40 +0100
Subject: Here we go: devuan
Message-ID: <CAKoGHGVpJxNS4_R4gSeV2m1Wbkb-GwH+wJLWoRCNeo-u43JPiw@mail.gmail.com>

Systemd is winning wide adoption because it's well-designed and
relatively simple.   Here are some slides I've made about it for an
upcoming talk:

http://she-devel.com/systemd_talk.odp

(also in PDF, PPT).     I hope that you find them useful.    I have no
energy to argue these points on a mailing list, which is why I'm
giving some talks.

HTH,
Alison

-- 
Alison Chaiken
(650) 279-5600  (cell)             {she-devel.com, exerciseforthereader.org}
Some work of noble note may yet be done.

From itz at buug.org  Wed Dec  3 15:50:19 2014
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 15:50:19 -0800
Subject: Here we go: devuan
In-Reply-To: <CAKoGHGVpJxNS4_R4gSeV2m1Wbkb-GwH+wJLWoRCNeo-u43JPiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKoGHGVpJxNS4_R4gSeV2m1Wbkb-GwH+wJLWoRCNeo-u43JPiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20141203155019.00dbb30d.itz@buug.org>

On Wed, 3 Dec 2014 23:28:40 +0100,
Alison Chaiken <alchaiken at gmail.com> wrote:

Alison> Systemd is winning wide adoption because it's well-designed and
Alison> relatively simple.
        ^^^^^^^^^^

Excellently put.

It all depends on, relatively to what.

-- 
Please *no* private copies of mailing list or newsgroup messages.
Rule 420: All persons more than eight miles high to leave the court.
Local Variables:
mode:claws-external
End:

From togo at of.net  Wed Dec  3 17:03:48 2014
From: togo at of.net (Tony Godshall)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 17:03:48 -0800
Subject: Here we go: devuan
In-Reply-To: <20141203155019.00dbb30d.itz@buug.org>
References: <CAKoGHGVpJxNS4_R4gSeV2m1Wbkb-GwH+wJLWoRCNeo-u43JPiw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20141203155019.00dbb30d.itz@buug.org>
Message-ID: <CAAOvATj81dX7hVt2f9LAnFdGQXguqG=dV5msycL9Jf06sszNDw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm glad ubuntu is going with systemd instead of upstart, anyway.  If
all the major distros go with systemd, systemd can't be made to suck
too much.

On the other hand if the good devs leave debian over this, debian's
left in the hands of ... who?

But so far, it's not that many people actually quitting Debian.  Joey
Hess will be missed, certainly.  He's contributed a *lot*.



On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Dec 2014 23:28:40 +0100,
> Alison Chaiken <alchaiken at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Alison> Systemd is winning wide adoption because it's well-designed and
> Alison> relatively simple.
>         ^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Excellently put.
>
> It all depends on, relatively to what.
>
> --
> Please *no* private copies of mailing list or newsgroup messages.
> Rule 420: All persons more than eight miles high to leave the court.
> Local Variables:
> mode:claws-external
> End:
> --
> bad mailing list
> bad at bad.debian.net
> http://bad.debian.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bad



-- 
--
Best Regards.
This is unedited.
This message came out of me
via a suboptimal keyboard.

From acohen36 at linuxwaves.com  Wed Dec  3 18:34:27 2014
From: acohen36 at linuxwaves.com (GoOSSBears)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 18:34:27 -0800
Subject: Here we go: devuan
Message-ID: <20141203183427.80FD6DE9@m0048141.ppops.net>

> On Wed, 3 Dec 2014 23:28:40 +0100,
> Alison Chaiken <alchaiken at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Alison> Systemd is winning wide adoption because it's well-designed and
> Alison> relatively simple.
>         ^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Excellently put.
>
> It all depends on, relatively to what.
> --

Besides Alison C's systemd slides[1], there is a nice systemd vs sysVinit cheatsheet[2] put out by LinOxide that I find very helpful in accommodating systemd.  This is in addition to the references I brought in my previous post[3]

OTOH, there is a CommitStrip comicstrip going around entitled 'Systemd World: the Park is open'[4] that tries to dramatically caution those who think they can avoid systemd :-O

Just sent as an FYI.
-A

Refs:
=====
[1]http://bad.debian.net/pipermail/bad/2014-December/003663.html 
[2]http://linoxide.com/linux-command/systemd-vs-sysvinit-cheatsheet/ 
[3]http://bad.debian.net/pipermail/bad/2014-December/003659.html 
[4]http://www.commitstrip.com/en/2014/12/page/3/ 

--
Go Open Source Software Bears!

--
bad mailing list
bad at bad.debian.net
http://bad.debian.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bad




_____________________________________________________________
Get your FREE, LinuxWaves.com Email Now! --> http://www.LinuxWaves.com 
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From togo at of.net  Wed Dec  3 20:13:48 2014
From: togo at of.net (Tony Godshall)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 20:13:48 -0800
Subject: Here we go: devuan
In-Reply-To: <20141203183427.80FD6DE9@m0048141.ppops.net>
References: <20141203183427.80FD6DE9@m0048141.ppops.net>
Message-ID: <CAAOvATgYpXiHm=3YKBtbMxa5hmmqsQJdOSLETVycdZaBfxqqDg@mail.gmail.com>

> OTOH, there is a CommitStrip comicstrip going around entitled 'Systemd
World: the Park is open'[4] that tries to dramatically caution those who
think they can avoid systemd :-O

http://www.commitstrip.com/en/2014/12/01/systemd-world-the-park-is-open/

Um that's just fud. No technical issue shown.

T
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From itz at buug.org  Wed Dec  3 20:22:40 2014
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 20:22:40 -0800
Subject: Here we go: devuan
In-Reply-To: <20141203183427.80FD6DE9@m0048141.ppops.net>
References: <20141203183427.80FD6DE9@m0048141.ppops.net>
Message-ID: <20141203202240.4071cadb.itz@buug.org>

On Wed, 3 Dec 2014 18:34:27 -0800,
GoOSSBears <acohen36 at linuxwaves.com> wrote:

> --
> Go Open Source Software Bears!
>
> --
> bad mailing list

I thought we knew how to thread in this list.  (I guess a nasty small
part of me is already looking for an excuse to unsubscribe.)

-- 
Please *no* private copies of mailing list or newsgroup messages.
Rule 420: All persons more than eight miles high to leave the court.
Local Variables:
mode:claws-external
End:

From itz at buug.org  Wed Dec  3 21:40:22 2014
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 21:40:22 -0800
Subject: Here we go: devuan
In-Reply-To: <CAAOvATgYpXiHm=3YKBtbMxa5hmmqsQJdOSLETVycdZaBfxqqDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20141203183427.80FD6DE9@m0048141.ppops.net>
 <CAAOvATgYpXiHm=3YKBtbMxa5hmmqsQJdOSLETVycdZaBfxqqDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20141203214022.00698d78.itz@buug.org>

On Wed, 3 Dec 2014 20:13:48 -0800,
Tony Godshall <togo at of.net> wrote:

Tony> Um that's just fud. No technical issue shown.

Also FUD:

http://www.muylinux.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/funny-systemd.gif

:)

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From togo at of.net  Thu Dec  4 11:47:30 2014
From: togo at of.net (Tony Godshall)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 11:47:30 -0800
Subject: Here we go: devuan
In-Reply-To: <20141203214022.00698d78.itz@buug.org>
References: <20141203183427.80FD6DE9@m0048141.ppops.net>
 <CAAOvATgYpXiHm=3YKBtbMxa5hmmqsQJdOSLETVycdZaBfxqqDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20141203214022.00698d78.itz@buug.org>
Message-ID: <CAAOvATjmOnw7+SN8GsziGhSnj9mzPPa5gmrBoKo+0bP0w=Dwyw@mail.gmail.com>

Actually, that one has some technical information in it.



On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:40 PM, Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Dec 2014 20:13:48 -0800,
> Tony Godshall <togo at of.net> wrote:
>
> Tony> Um that's just fud. No technical issue shown.
>
> Also FUD:
>
> http://www.muylinux.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/funny-systemd.gif
>
> :)
>
> --
> Please *no* private copies of mailing list or newsgroup messages.
> Rule 420: All persons more than eight miles high to leave the court.
> Local Variables:
> mode:claws-external
> End:
> --
> bad mailing list
> bad at bad.debian.net
> http://bad.debian.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bad



-- 
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Best Regards.
This is unedited.
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From lyz at princessleia.com  Fri Dec  5 16:03:28 2014
From: lyz at princessleia.com (Elizabeth K. Joseph)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 16:03:28 -0800
Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Bay Area Debian meeting at Henry's Hunan Restaurant
 (SOMA location), SF, December 10th @ 7PM
Message-ID: <CABesOu2fxie2ROxFecMXaFOgLZZrooiwXnRLpEAmYtjHrj3zXQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,

On Wednesday, December 10th at 7PM we'll be having a casual Bay Area
Debian dinner meeting back over at:

Henry's Hunan Restaurant
110 Natoma Street (between Mission and Howard off of New Montgomery)
San Francisco, CA 94105
415-546-4999

This is the SOMA location where we have had past meetings (there are
several other locations in the city). Reservations will be made under
"Bay Area Debian" on our table we'll have little stuffed Wheezy
(penguin) and Jessie (cowgirl) toys. And we'll have some Debian
stickers.

The location is wheelchair accessible, beer and wine are available, as
are vegetarian options. When we have larger groups we each ordered a
plate or two and enjoyed the meal family-style sharing (with some
adaptations for dietary restrictions). We request that you bring cash
to simplify settling the bill, but they do accept Visa/Mastercard and
they've been willing to charge to separate cards in the past.

This will be following the monthly 6-7PM "Ubuntu Hour" at the nearby
Starbucks at 74 New Montgomery St, next to The Palace Hotel, if you're
interested in coming to that too (or you just arrive early and want
some company!) information is available here:
http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-california/2962-ubuntu-hour-san-francisco/

Local street map (thanks to Michael Paoli):
http://princessleia.com/images/debian/bad.2011.map.png

It's just a couple blocks from BART, MUNI and the temporary transbay
terminal. More direction information can be found in the announcement
from our December 2011 meeting (thanks to Rick Moen):
http://bad.debian.net/list/2011-December/003470.html

Feel free to let me know if you have any questions. Hope to see you there!

-- 
Elizabeth Krumbach Joseph || Lyz || pleia2

From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Tue Dec  9 18:11:49 2014
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2014 18:11:49 -0800
Subject: Books for BAD and ...
Message-ID: <20141209181149.14493oa4fcsrru2o@webmail.rawbw.com>

I've got some books to distribute to some user groups - including BAD.
These are review copies from Pearson Education (they'd of course quite
appreciate if you write a review - especially on Amazon.com for the
particular title and edition).

I received 4 copies each of the physical books noted further below.
I'll be doing my semi-usual of giving a book (or two) away per user
group as I cycle through upcoming user group meetings I go to (given the
quantity received, I'll likely do up to 2 books per user group, at least
until each group has had at least one chance at getting books).

I'll likely also manage to get copies of The Official Ubuntu Book signed
by one of the (local) authors by the time I make it to BAD.

The book titles & info.:

Practice of Cloud System Administration, The: Designing and Operating
Large Distributed Systems, Volume 2
By Thomas A. Limoncelli, Strata R. Chalup, Christina J. Hogan
Published Sep 3, 2014 by Addison-Wesley Professional.
Copyright 2015
Dimensions: 7" x 9-1/8"
Pages: 560
Edition: 1st
Book
ISBN-10: 0-321-94318-X
ISBN-13: 978-0-321-94318-7
http://www.informit.com/store/product.aspx?isbn=032194318X

Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System, The, 2nd
Edition
By Marshall Kirk McKusick, George V. Neville-Neil, Robert N.M. Watson
Published Sep 5, 2014 by Addison-Wesley Professional.
Copyright 2015
Dimensions: 6-1/4" x 9-1/4"
Pages: 928
Edition: 2nd
Book
ISBN-10: 0-321-96897-2
ISBN-13: 978-0-321-96897-5
http://www.informit.com/store/product.aspx?isbn=0321968972

Official Ubuntu Book, The, 8th Edition
By Matthew Helmke, Elizabeth Joseph, José Antonio Rey, Philip Ballew,
Benjamin Mako Hill
Published Jul 15, 2014 by Prentice Hall.
Copyright 2015
Dimensions: 7" x 9-1/8"
Pages: 368
Edition: 8th
Book
ISBN-10: 0-13-390539-X
ISBN-13: 978-0-13-390539-7
http://www.informit.com/store/product.aspx?isbn=013390539X